#20 - How Should We Deal With Ogling? (Checking People Out)
Are humans designed to check each other out? Can we even control our eyes? Are religious people doomed to never look at attractive people again without some sort of repercussion?
We are discussing how to best use our sight so that our eyes are used for the greater good in today’s episode.
Introduction
Discussion of current COVID-19 status
Comparison of the dangers of COVID to the danger of porn
How do we deal with looking at attractive people?
What are some real-life examples of how to deal with your eyes?
When do most ogling happen?
What is objectification?
What does “healthy-looking” look like?
The difference between controlling porn and controlling our eyes
How can we invest our sexual energy wisely and create meaningful relationships with others?
Episode Transcript:
Andrew Love
Welcome back to another episode of Love, Life and Legacy, a show where we help you navigate through these hyper-sexual times in which we live. And today we're going to talk about using your eyes for good. A lot of people are trying, they're trying so hard to be good people. And they're trying to figure out well, then what does that mean for our eyes? What do we look at? What do we not look at? How do we use our eyes for something good, rather than using our eyes to get us into trouble? So we wanted to unpack that, Sammy and I today. And we're excited because this is a topic that comes up a lot in conversations. There's a lot of people who are just fed up with feeling like a victim to their own eyes. So let's regain subjectivity over ourselves and our eyes, and let's win this game called life. Enjoy.
Sammy Uyama
Hello ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to the Love, Life and Legacy, podcast. Here, we talk about all things related to sex, providing you guys with a levelheaded perspective that's tried, tested, and true in order to help you navigate sexuality in this modern world. I'm Sammy Uyama. Together here with Mr. Love. Hello Andrew, how are you?
Andrew Love
You never let me get to introduce myself, Sammy, every time. Man.
Sammy Uyama
Andrew Love. And where are you today?
Andrew Love
Let's start with that. I am in beautiful Bali, Bali, and my family and I are like the only people on the island because of the Coronavirus, which hopefully by the time you listen to this podcast is just like a fad. "Hey, remember that Coronavirus thing, but it's scaring everybody?" So it's like, it's pretty empty. We went, we went to like the main beach here in a place called Lavina. And just this guy took us. We're like, hey, what does the beach look like? It's like a black, black sand. It's pretty cool, I guess volcanic. And, and nobody, I didn't know that was the main beach. When we left he was like, whoa that was weird. And I said why? And he said that was the main beach of this whole area, and, and there was nobody there. There's, there's, we saw one other family and then some guys playing soccer, but it was like a ghost town. So yeah, we're here. We're bearing, bearing the elements, which, not hard out here. Just some big bugs. Beautiful place. Where are you Samuel L. Jackson?
Sammy Uyama
I am in... oh that's, that's so surreal to hear you say, just what I know about Bali. It's the, probably one of the number one tourist destinations in the world right now. Number one Instagram destination for sure.
Andrew Love
Yeah.
Sammy Uyama
And just to hear it's completely empty like that, that is, that's surreal. I'm in another war-torn Corona area. I'm still in Seoul, South Korea and it is nuts here. Yeah. Number two country for confirmed cases. One of the main cities... it's in a different city so action, so it's not that bad yet. People are worried about it but you still see kids playing in the playground. The grocery stores, the shelves are stocked. It's not, you know, that bad yet. School is canceled. That's a big deal. Basically, for the entire (crosstalk).
Andrew Love
Especially in Korea. In Korea, like, school's 100% of everything you do when you're a kid, right?
Sammy Uyama
Yeah, yeah. So schools are shut down. And then the, you know, yeah, they have the private academies, the after school, school, those are all closed.
Andrew Love
My God.
Sammy Uyama
So a lot of people, depending on the industry, a lot of people are hurting financially.
Andrew Love
Yeah.
Sammy Uyama
Like a lot of restaurants going out of business. So anyone in the educational industry, they're hurting. Yeah, so there's that effect. But in day to day life, a lot of people are telecommuting more than ever, which is also a big deal. I keep going back and forth saying oh, it's not that big of a deal then, but except for this one thing where it actually is a big deal. But telecommuting is always frowned upon and in Korean culture, you know, they're kind of more traditional, wants you in the office. And that's, there's a big shift in the mindset around that and a lot more people are commuting from home now. But other than the host things, just you know, like you see, if you see kids playing in the playground, I think that's always like a really big litmus test or how, how drastic are things really. And people are still getting you know, traveling around, doing what they need to. Of course, all the unnecessary things people have toned down, you know, traveling as much as possible. Masks are sold out. Everyone's wearing masks everywhere you go. But in the main city, Daegu where this big outburst happened and where majority of cases are right now - they are totally shut down. It's like everything is closed. They're hurting a lot there. They're having to bring in food from other cities.
Andrew Love
What?
Sammy Uyama
And, yeah, so you know, that's those people. My wife, my wife's parents are pastors and they're actually pastors in a neighboring city, maybe like an hour away from that place. And it's at, that happens to be a huge tourist destination. And so they're, they, they're feeling it pretty hard. And that because of proximity, it's close by. But also, you know, their pastor, so their congregation, they're all people who are living locally, working in something related to tourism. And so a lot of them are out of jobs right now. And they're feeling a lot.
Andrew Love
Yeah. Well, you know, pertaining to what we deal with. It's pretty bananas. Right? Because I know there's a lot of opinions, opinions about this virus and it definitely seems like this weird phenomenon that seems no worse than you know, a cold. But because it's new and it's the, seems aggressive, people are really hyping it up. But it's messing up people's lives. But nowhere near as bad as porn. Nowhere near as bad when, like, if you look at the stats, if you look at a real virus that's affecting humanity, and you look at how porn is, if you really look at it and beyond the data, with, with testimonies, with hearing, you know, person after person talking about what porn is really done to damage their families, their mental lives or spiritual lives, whatever. It's, the numbers don't even come close, right? But since it's just ever present, I guess, you know, we're not on high alert at all with porn. But I find it, I find it amazing. Just, of course, like there are people who have died so you can't really make light of it. It's, it's pretty, you know. I mean, the Coronavirus. You don't want to just take it lightly. Cuz I know some people are just, you know, pulling it but at the same time when you look at it nuts to nuts, for lack of better words. That's probably the worse term I could have used...
Sammy Uyama
The only analogy that fits the scenario exactly what we want.
Andrew Love
I don't know, whatever the thing is that you're supposed to compare that, the apples to apples, whatever. It's not even close in terms of impact spread, you know, global, global damage, all that stuff. But anyway, I just, I was just thinking about that as you're talking about. Because yes, there's like, you look at oh my god, there's a virus out there that can make us cough. And most people are totally okay; some people die so you do have to be careful. But it's like people stopped traveling because of it. People stop going out to restaurants. They're shutting down schools in Korea. The tourist industry is like, is on high alert. All throughout Southeast Asia, all throughout Asia in general. And it's like, it's like the flu. Right? And I know uncle David, the founder of High Noon, is always on high alert for like, what is porn doing to us? Right? And that's what drives him to keep on pushing and pushing. And I think it's worth noting at least, at least just worth, no, that's not what we're talking about today in today's episode. But just, just think about that, you know, how much more we're ready to run away from a flu virus than something that's attacking our very soul and the soul of our entire planet? Yeah, we don't take it with nearly as much precaution or seriousness if you really compare it nuts to nuts.
Sammy Uyama
Yes, sausages to sausages.
Andrew Love
Man, I'm sorry. For all the women out there, I apologize. I totally apologize. It's such a dude joke.
Sammy Uyama
Time will tell. Time will tell if, well, if this episode... it's you know, beginning of March. This episode will go out in a couple months from now. And either this whole thing will have blown over or, you know, half the population has died. And we'll either be proven right or will look like complete morons.
Andrew Love
Well, how about being an optimist is always good. How about that? How about that? Can we just agree?
Sammy Uyama
Yes. So, speaking of optimism, pornography... because those two go hand in hand don't they?
Andrew Love
Well today, okay guys and gals, people of the world. Today we wanted to talk about looking at people because this is like, for anybody out there who sincerely from the bottom of their heart wants to give their whole minds, their whole hearts, their whole spirits, everything, to another person and create a love like from a fairy tale where you create a family that you are so proud of and are so happy to come home to; like, this kind of love, the kind of love that inspires others. Want to love more? We, you know, we I think most people would, would strive for that. And, but along the way there's, like there's, you know, we have billions of people on this planet. And many of them are very attractive. And so what we've seen is that when people are trying to become good men and women who are just like really devoted to another person, they don't know how to deal with other attractive people. Like, do you just not look at people ever and just wear blinders like a horse and just only ever look at your spouse? Or are you allowed to look at the opposite sex every once in a while? Or like, how does that, how does that play out? So Sammy, and I wanted to kind of dig into that today.
Sammy Uyama
Yes, so but that's basically what we're here to talk about, is it?
Andrew Love
Well, for some people But yes, for some people, even faces. Like I know some guys that are because, I mean, I, there's women who I have heard from as well. But mostly I'm, I help guys out, and some of them are so hard on themselves because they, they looked at a woman's face for too long or whatever. And it's, and it's, it's just worth talking about. Because some people it's, again, like most conversations these days it's either 100% okay, or it's 100% not okay. And then anywhere in between those two extremes, you kind of get lost because there's very little conversation because you're either hyper religious, and anything is a sin that's not, you know, I don't know, just not by the book, right? Orthodox. Or you're just hundred percent secular and anything you feel like doing is totally okay. And I've come to really subscribe 100% to the healthy milieu which is informed by the best of both worlds, right?
Sammy Uyama
Yeah, it's, it's, this is a great topic. Great idea. It's so relevant to people in that, especially if you're coming from the place where you want to learn how to love your spouse and really treat them sexy and look at them and be really into them, then, you know, how do you do that? And that is the, that, you know, your spouse is the focus of all of that energy.
Andrew Love
Yeah.
Sammy Uyama
And from both of these words coming from either of these worlds, it's impossible. Either, you know, you spend your whole life fighting against, I mean, you're naturally. First off, you're naturally going to notice other people, you're gonna know; you're gonna be checking out and ogling maybe not ogling, but you're gonna be you know, you're noticing at least, and do this either...
Andrew Love
I would totally like to submit the fact that it's ogling. I don't know where you're getting this ogling.
Sammy Uyama
Googly googly.
Andrew Love
Ogling, ogling.
Sammy Uyama
That sounds like a complete made up word. Ogling at least sounds like a normal human vocabulary.
Andrew Love
So here's a great point. If you are listening to this and you have opinions about this, please write to us. Please write it somewhere in social media. What is it: oogling or googling? We're really hitting tough, red-button issues today.
Sammy Uyama
All right. And so back to the, the matter at hand, the other matter. So if you're coming from this religious world; so best case scenario, you learn how to fight this natural inclination to look at people. And you, you come from, you know, you kind of train yourself to treat that activity as bad. And then suddenly you're in a relationship with someone and you're supposed to turn that off and treat this person sexy and be really into them and attracted to them - that, that's difficult. And then, and then at the same time, how do you keep that focus only on that person? I mean, and then the other world you can come from is you check it you know, you're just really into people. You're really into butts, boobs and all that, all that good stuff. And, and, and then, uh, but then, so you get married to someone and even if you find them attractive, then how do, that you have no training and practice in, and what's the word? Exclusive... exclusive-vising?
Andrew Love
Exclusivity towards somebody?
Sammy Uyama
Yeah, like, of only using energy only on your spouse rather than your spouse is just inside the bucket of things that you're, what you're attracted to.
Andrew Love
Yeah, yeah. One of many.
Sammy Uyama
One of many. And so, and, and that's something to develop prior to marriage is the learning how to hone this energy and this focus. And then, so when you're blessed and when you're married and you're in a relationship, then you have the training of not you know, I like you know, feeding off of the attractiveness of other people and appropriately and there's all this stuff I guess want to talk about but then also not just treating them as one of many, but then putting out to a specific person. It's a really hard thing.
Andrew Love
I think it is. And I mean, I think the reason why we actually are having this conversation today is because I just arrived in Bali, right. And the first thing out of the gates, like we got a drive, it's three hours from, you know, the airport to where we're staying right now. And right close to the airport, is just that's where all the tourists are. And there's all these beautiful beaches, and they just so happens to be you know, everybody's basically, you know, naked or wearing minimal garments. Let's just say the, the, their real estate is mostly bare. And I just noticed myself, like, it became unavoidable regardless of whether I wanted to see something or not - it was just everywhere. So if I were to say look over here, and there's a, there's a, like a bikini over here, you know, with a person inside the bikini, then I would divert my eyes and then oh boom, another person in less than a bikini, whatever. Just there's, there's, there was, it felt like there is nowhere to look where I couldn't get into trouble. And then, you know, I really put things into perspective of, well, what, what do I want out of this situation? How can I come out of this a better person instead of just, you know, being a victim to circumstances. Because regardless of what you're doing in life, you never want to be a victim of circumstances. That's it. That's a crappy default, because we always have some sort of power if we choose. So what, what do, what state do I want to live in in those kinds of situations? Right? And I personally, I don't know. Do you know John Steinbeck, Sammy, Of Mice, and East of Eden. Anyway, he wrote, you know, Of Mice and Men; is like the book that you're forced to read in high school. I loved it because it was like 92 pages or something, super short and a really impactful book. But he also wrote a book called The Wayfair Bus, or The Wayward Bus - The Wayward Bus. And I got it from this old bookshop, and it was like an embossed, hardcover, beautiful book, and I just got lost in it. And I'm not a huge reader, but it was like the story of, you know, a group of people on a Greyhound bus for a three-day trip. And it's like the most boring book except the writer was so good that it seemed exciting. And there was one character who was an old man who kept on getting erections from looking at young ladies. And he hated it. He hated the fact that he couldn't stop looking at these young people. And they were young, young, like, little kids kind of thing. And it was like this war that was going on inside of him. And I was, I read that maybe 20 years ago, and it left this indelible mark in me that, you know. That's definitely what a lot of people go through day to day where they don't want to look but they can't not look. Then they feel bad about themselves, but they keep on looking and that's their relationship with porn. That becomes their relationship with you know, whatever they're attracted to is they don't want to, but then they do. So I really want to unpack this stuff because I've been thinking about this for a long time and Sammy and I help a lot of people overcome their porn addiction or their compulsive habits. But along the way, it's, it's, it's, it becomes about, well, what do you want to do with your eyes? What do you want to do with your, with your time and your energy, you know? That becomes the better question rather than what do you not want to do? Right? So let's talk about our eyes. What, what's like semi-okay, real life... cuz we got notes that people, some people anyway, love, just to hear like, real-life facts and, you know, stories. Do you yourself, you're walking down the street, okay? There's an incredibly, there's like a sorority of you know, like a sorority, they're about, they're out and about in the town. They're all very, very skimpy clothing, adorned with like next to nothing. What would you do?
Sammy Uyama
At the car wash fundraiser going on across the street?
Andrew Love
What? Yeah all this stuff is like, it's like red alert there. The alarm is going off, like, what do you personally? What do you do? Right? What do you do Sammy? You, what do you do?
Sammy Uyama
Well, we're, I guess we're talking about at different stages of my resolve. And because there's different, there's times in my life where I can imagine myself stopping and suddenly needing to tie my shoe. Or, or check, check my watch for the time or something. Or, and there are times when I would be like, really resilient and to very constantly go in a different direction.
Andrew Love
Yeah.
Sammy Uyama
Oh, how should I answer this...
Andrew Love
You're trying to not get in trouble? Is that what you're trying to...
Sammy Uyama
I'm trying to think of a...
Andrew Love
Well, let's say, let's say like, like recently, you know. So there's Sammy 10 years ago, but then there's Sammy now. I guess we can talk about both Sammies. But, like, the Sammy of today, the father, you're like, just to get really real. You're a dad one time over, and you're about to have little Niño number two or Niña. You're gonna have or Niño.
Sammy Uyama
Niño.
Andrew Love
You're gonna have a second baby's coming this summer, blockbuster. All the blockbusters come out of the summer. So you're gonna have a blockbuster baby, and you have a wife that you love, but yet still, you're a human being. Moreover, you're a man who's attracted to women. So what would happen in a situation where you're, you're you. I mean, you go to, you live in Seoul, so you'd; let's say you go to Lotte World Tower, there's a lot of attractive people there. What do you, how do you prepare, or like, what do you do when you're in this scenario? Just trying to get a sense.
Sammy Uyama
Yeah. Okay. This is very similar to a more everyday example is like going to the gym. I think that's something a lot of people can relate with and have experienced of, you know, you go in the gym and you know, like, that's where, you know, people who tend to have attractive bodies, get them at the gym. Right. So, and so yeah, for me on, yeah, to be honest, there's... I fluctuate with my, like, nowadays, even like what I would, how I always end up going, you know, like, oh, I need to be away from here. But as far as how long I indulge in that it's, you know, it's, there's like, one thing that I've heard that was very helpful is like what to do with the second look, you know? It's like the first look, you can't control. It's like living your life and things come into your periphery, they come into your field of view. And so you don't need to take, you know, really take that on and feel, you know, really feel too bad about that. But the second look, that's a choice. And you know what to do in that moment when you have recognition. And you know, that those times you go back to confirm or take a second glance, and I fluctuate and like and how good I am in with that second look. Yeah. And I'll, I'll kind of, gonna indulge for a little bit, but I always come to my senses, and I'm able to kind of redirect that. Or going on, and it's never as bad as like, I'll stop what I'm doing. And just it's like, I always go on, you know, it's, you know...
Andrew Love
In the cartoons and their eyes pop out of their head and they go (makes sound).
Sammy Uyama
Yeah, right. So it's like, oh, it's, it's however long the frequency of like, it's in my field of view, right? And so I'll be honest about it. But to my credit, I always am very honest about these things with my wife. And she's always a part of these experiences that I have. And so if she's there with me, and this is, this. So here's the experiences that, you know, we go walking around, there's a lake near our house, we walk around the lake, and there's people jogging; and I, like, notice, not, not ogling, necessarily, but definitely noticing attractive people. And I feel like I'm with my wife and like, I'll make all this effort to pretend that I don't notice them. And it is like, it's so constricting. I didn't want to have that experience when I was with my wife. So one time I just acknowledge it, like, hey, you, hey, honey, I was, you know, pretending not to notice but I was, I was noticing that pretty, attractive person just went by. And what's remarkable was the way she responded. She was like, oh, really, I was doing the exact same thing.
Andrew Love
No bad (inaudible).
Sammy Uyama
Yeah, well cuz she is... so for me it was like oh my gosh we're, like, both feeling bad about noticing something that we feel like we shouldn't be and then we're pretending that we're not. And so it became something that we could just talk about.
Andrew Love
Yeah. Yeah.
Sammy Uyama
And so those moments when, you know, we're there together, I'll, it just eases the tension when I can just acknowledge, hey... however it goes. So like,hey, I just, there's this group of women over there or this person over there and I saw. And then so, you know, I, I was guarded myself. And so I was like being really careful not to indulge in that direction too much. And then so she's, okay I appreciate it, thanks for telling me. Or it's like, hey, I took like three or four glances; alright, and then we went by, and then she's like, okay, thanks for telling me and, or that's when we're together. And if I'm out on my own and then when I come back, you know, these things stay with me and, and I don't want to feel... and so I don't want to feel that I kept that from my wife so I'll share them with her simply and it helps keep me more conscientious... ...about what I'm stimulated by. What I, and what, what goes on in my life and I'm more rigorous about you know, that, that part of you know, that, yeah, that part of my life.
Andrew Love
Yeah, yeah. Well I think that's, that's amazing. And I think that oh, first of all, I do the same thing. For sure. Like if I noticed myself, checking people out, I'll, I'll go to my wife and I'll tell her and it's usually because we're fighting, you know. And I'd be like, Listen, we've been fighting a lot lately. I feel disconnected and I feel like my eyes are looking for somebody to give me validation or something that can remind me of something nice and I don't want to do this. Like, I want, I want to go back to you and I just don't, I don't feel close to you right now. And this is a great exercise, too, because it kind of re-stimulates love, like you can kind of recommit. But I've also like, just in general realize that I, people in general, myself included in this statement, are more apt to ogle or oogle people more when they're in a lower state, when they're less connected to their sense of purpose, when they're frustrated, when they're not seeing limitlessness of life. I think that that disengagement and that dis-empowerment causes us to want to find it in something that reminds us of beauty. And so beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and we look for something beautiful to remind us of something that we want. Like, it's very selfish. Like I want to consume this thing so that I can feel better about myself. And I don't think it works either. I think it works against us. When we check people out a lot, we don't typically feel better. It doesn't satiate us. It's like eating a ton of Pringles. It doesn't, like, fill us up with nutrients. It just, like, makes us full for the, for the time being, but it doesn't give us what we actually need. So I definitely find that when I'm struggling, I look more. When I'm struggling with life. And that's what I find people do with porn, too, is like, when they're struggling on a homework assignment or, or at work, when they're just frustrated, they go to porn, because it's a form of escape. And in real life, I think people do that too. When they're, when they they feel like, you know, nobody loves them, then they're more likely to check people out for longer. Whereas you see a young couple who's like, really in love, they're only checking each other out because they're kind of totally just enamored by one another. And I think in my experience, you can always go back to that place of being in love with, with the person you're committed to. If, if that's becomes a priority, but you have to bring your eyes back to them, you know. And along the way, like, I realized to, like, certain tricks or like thinking about what my face looks like when I'm checking out a girl or a female. That's, that's strong enough to snap me out of it because it's so gross. I get so grossed out when people I respect, when I see them checking out people from you know, like checking out people sexually - it so gross to me. I get so disappointed. And so I try to remind myself of what I look like. And I have big eyes, so like when I... my creeper face is really gross. It's really kind of intense. You know, I look like a stalker, but I don't think anybody particularly looks wonderful when they're, like, devouring another person with their eyes and their mind. It's just kind of gross. You're, it's like you're consuming them, you know, like you're devouring them in your mind. And you're not thinking about that person. I'm gonna, I'm gonna shut up after this. But you and I were watching that video on YouTube. I don't know if we should link it because it's not exactly us or you know. But there's a cool guy that was talking about, like, the stages of sexuality and in terms of like, your consciousness. And really, the more you're focused on base sexuality, meaning looking at boobs and butts or whatever part of the body you're looking at, it's because you're in a very low materialistic state. And in that state, you can't really move stuff, you can't really make magic happen. But when you start to become a little bit more elevated, those material things have less pull over you and you start thinking about more important things like internal matters. How much that person internally counts instead of just checking out their external qualities. Looking at them internally, their value internally. And the higher you go up, the less you really are connected to the, that, that stuff. I know it sounds kind of abstract, but it's, it's a challenge because I think we all vacillate day to day depending on what we're dealing with. And so, I find that when I'm checking out females, it's because I'm in a very low state. And I'm not thinking about the longer view of history, that person's history, my own history, history in general. It's just like, momentarily, I'm looking at their body, and that becomes everything, you know, and it's only when I'm not connected to something big, something interesting.
Sammy Uyama
Okay, everything that you just said, Andrew, that, that perfectly describes this word as objectification. That's exactly what this is, is irrelevant of a person, a person's personality, their history, them as a human being, you know. This whole, this, this devouring, this consuming is all about just this base physical desire and what you can take from that.
Andrew Love
Yeah.
Sammy Uyama
So is, it's you know, very well put. Because, you know, I think this is one of those words that like, oh, objectification, objectifying - that kind of gets thrown around a lot that it begins to lose the meaning of it. And so what are we actually talking about here is it's really dehumanizing a person and, and kind of boxing off their body into sections.
Andrew Love
Yeah.
Sammy Uyama
And that's, that's, you know, that's the way you can get entire Instagram feeds. They're devoted to butts for example, right. And it's just like, that's all you care about.
Andrew Love
Yeah. And, you know, in terms of, like, psychology and all that, I've read a lot about this. And there's obviously, it's funny when people think, well, psychologists say, psychologists are so divided on every topic. And it really does depend on what their origin point is, you know. But one thing I've heard that I tend to agree with is like, it's kind of weird. The parts of the body that men obsess about in woman that their boobs are like, that's, it's in a way like a cry for a mommy. Right? Like, you have a wife, I have a wife. We have kids, kids. When you look at kids, they want boobs when they're little. They love boobs. It's like their happy place. A kid can go from crying and dying and just to totally happy in a second that, you know, when the boob comes out, it's, this, it's kind of like a miracle healer. And, well, what's that about? Like, why are we so obsessed with boobs and, and butts, I don't, I don't really get it. You know, there's obviously like the...
Sammy Uyama
Oh, Andrew, let me, let me sit you down.
Andrew Love
Don't trigger people. But like definitely firmness, like people, like focusing on younger people, people who are toned, this kind of thing, typically, because it's a sign of youth, right, when we were younger. And I've also read from psychologists that say, you know, the type of person that you're attracted to, is from a very specific time in your life when you were happiest and you associate that type of person. And it could be like a tattooed person or a person with a certain type of hair. It's hard to kind of go deep, but it's like, it's just reminding you of a better day. Right? But in the end, I just want to say that I heard a really good quote, and it only really applies if you believe in God, I guess. But are you using your eyes for God and for doing good for others and caring about others? Or are you using your eyes selfishly for yourself? I guess it, you don't have to believe in God for that. And it's the same of all of your senses. You're you and including, including your body and every part of you, are you using it for productive selfless means or destructive, selfish means. And it seems like our eyes are kind of like the last frontier in the journey of sexual integrity to be mastered, so that they're used for other people. So that you're looking at other people for their sake, instead of looking at other people for your own selfish means, which is like, it's kind of like an obvious saying. It sounds so obvious, but how often do we actually look at people? Like during the day, how often do you look at people and think about how can I help this person? Or what does this person need? Instead, we're usually thinking what can I get from this person? Especially when it comes to sexuality and attraction.
Sammy Uyama
All right, so we took a real deep dive look at unhealthy looking - what that looks like. It's this consuming, devouring, objectifying, basically anything to do with trying, wanting to take something from another person for your own gain. And, and anything that's to do with stripping away the humanity from somebody and just compartmentalizing them. That's, that's, you know, unhealthy looking is with that side. And then the other end, I say the other side of unhealthy looking is this kind of shame-driven approach where you just feel bad and guilty all the time, whether you're just, like, naturally driven towards this direction to appreciate beauty. And just to feel so guilty about that and, and repress yourself so much. And so I want to take a look at with you, Andrew, what is, what is healthy looking look like? And I'm really curious about this conversation because I don't know that I actually have the answer to share with everybody. And so this is really just gonna be like a conversation between you and me. I have some ideas I've formulated over the years and I've talked about here and there with some people but I've never actually sat down and, and talked about this very intentionally, especially in front of a live audience.
Andrew Love
A live, recorded audience. A post-dated audience. So I just, I wanted to say quickly that one of the most inspiring things I ever heard about this topic, it obviously left a mark in me, I heard it when I was preparing to kind of meet my wife when I was getting ready. You know, cosmically, to be able to be in a state to receive a wife. I was going to a lot of workshops, to learn about how to be a good husband, this kind of thing. And this guy, this lecture talked about, imagine, imagine walking down the street and seeing such an amazingly attractive person, right? For me, woman, an amazing woman. That just, is just so beautiful in every way, shape, or form. And then you let's say, wow, that woman is beautiful. I want to take that adoration and then go give it to my wife. I can't wait to go home and give my wife the same appreciation. I can't wait to take that energy and reinvest it into my wife and reminding her how beautiful she is. Because the point is that what you love becomes beautiful. That's why people can be attracted to all sorts of weird stuff because they invest time and energy and emotion into making it beautiful. Whereas, you know, what you resent becomes ugly. And so it's very true when you start to obsess with looking at a woman and, or whatever you just like objectifying people, is you're making them beautiful, and in a way you're giving away your power. And so I just remember hearing that from him. But you know, to be, to be honest, that guy, I remember who gave that lecture, and he in the end didn't really live up to it. And so hearing these kind of ideals, like that's what I'm striving for. But I definitely don't always do it, you know, but that's, that's what keeps me going is like, I know it is possible and I have done it for stretches. Though in my weakest point I, I do sometimes revert to lowering my standard, but I do know it's possible and it's a muscle that needs to be exercised, which is like how to take beauty from around us and then use it to love the person you're committed to loving so that they become the epicenter of beauty to you. And that's all done through your senses with intentionality over time, over time.
Sammy Uyama
like, it's, it can be this vicious feedback loop, I imagine, where you're, you see something as more attractive as you invest into it. And then you come back home and your spouse is not that and and so you're more resentful...
Andrew Love
Yeah
Sammy Uyama
...towards that. And then just feeds on itself like that. And so you can break that by taking that adoration and then channeling it very intentionally and very specifically into your spouse.
Andrew Love
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Sammy Uyama
One form of healthy-looking.
Andrew Love
Yeah, it's just like, because in that, in that context, you're, you look and you say, wow, that person is beautiful. And then you unplug from that, that's the main thing, is like that attraction, that magnetism has power. And the longer you stay plugged into it, the more that it takes over you, right? But you unplug, you acknowledge you unplug, and then you save that energy and then you re-plug it back into open source. So if you're, if you're married, then you...
Sammy Uyama
Where's, where, where's this healthy source located? Like, where do I plug into what?
Andrew Love
It doesn't have to be sex. It doesn't mean you have to go home and have sex. It just means that you plug that attraction with, you know, to your spouse, and I think that's just incredibly helpful. And it's again, it's practice. Just like we know what to do to get abs, but so few of us do it on a regular basis enough to have abs, but this is very much possible. For anybody who wants to experience like, total adoration and to have your, your one and only be your one and only, it is very much possible. And if you are single, you can also plug it into learning how to love yourself and your future spouse and God and your parents. It's very much possible.
Sammy Uyama
Yeah, when I was thinking about this, what healthy looking looks like, I think back on my own, you know, my early days of trying sexual integrity. And like you just said, the eyes is really the, the last frontier. And initially all my focus was on dealing with pornography and masturbation. And then as I started to get a grapple on that, and then I started to pay more attention to the things that like encourage that behavior in the, in widening that, those, that sphere of those triggers, right? And like kind of what are more and more activities that lead in this direction and being more sensitive towards those things. And when one of them was which seemed the hardest to grab to deal with was like in, in life when you're just going about your activities, you can do your best to avoid all the, all the websites, and you know, avoid certain, you know, there's lots of things you can make a very intentional effort to avoid. But then there's a lot of stuff that just can't be helped where you just walk down the street and the sororities having a fundraiser car wash across the street, right. And I was, you know, that was, really felt like the one of the last areas. And I was talking to someone about this like, really, like, you know, what do I do? I feel like I'm so in the moment. I'm so enraptured. And like all my brain just like I become that cartoon with the eyes popping out almost where I'm just like, my brain just stops working. And then afterwards, and I just feel guilty about myself and someone gave me, told me this thing that I took to heart. And that really helped me a lot was, and be more intentional about that. Those experiences, was, I'm not resisting my attraction to these people and, and fighting this, this you know, fighting this attraction I feel but acknowledging it. And then what I do with it, not with that acknowledgement. And that was really powerful. So what I mean is like, so I'm looking at this person as a human being - that's what, what he recommended to me. And like, they have their life and they have their challenges of, you know, the, I imagine there are challenges of attractive people, I imagine where, you know, it's hard to believe, but it's like, you know, there's a lot of ways to do things a lot easier for sure. But one of the difficulties that I'm sure many of the really attractive people deal with is being really wholly and loved fully as a human being. And a lot of admiration and what they receive, the attention they see is because of the way they look. And that can, I imagine, they get lonely that can get, it's difficult if you're, like, for women to find a really good husband. Why, like, if the kind of people they're kind of going to go after her are a certain kind of guy - and it's kind of generalizing, of course, right? But you know, just have, you know, doing this kind of thought process to help me sympathize and view these people as real people with real lives. And that was so and so I started, I started experimenting that and it was really powerful. So first to not resist that initial attraction and, like, notice these people. And this is very different than, of course, okay I want to, I want to distinguish... So, like, there's like, in some areas I found, I talked about this first look, second look thing. And I heard about this concept called bouncing your eyes where like if you notice something sexual like an ad or something, then you notice it. But then like, be really conscientious about, like, where you put your, your attention after that. And so that was a habit I developed as being very intentional with like, even physically what I let into my line of sight. And that was helpful just to be in that mindfulness. But, but this is different with people when like, you know, you can't be a hermit and, and just shun all attracted people from your life. And you know, you're like the barista at Starbucks or something and whoever in whatever situation where you're interacting with people, and how can you deal with that attraction that you feel. And so this is where this applies. And that, so I acknowledge myself like, okay, yeah, this person is attractive and I appreciate a feat, and you know, whatever feature about them. And then I say to myself, like, okay, but this is not my spouse. This is someone else's spouse. And so I pray that this person can find a husband that loves her wholly and fully for who she is. And she lives a really great and happy life. And yeah, yeah.
Andrew Love
Yeah. it's relating to them, like you said before, on a human level, right? Yeah, I think that's, that's the thing is, you know, and that's the whole thing about fantasy in general is you're making them out to be what you want them to be. To serve your needs, whatever those may be. Because you're lonely that in your mind, you know, you're thinking, wow, this person could really love me and all this stuff, but you have no idea who this person is, you know. I have no idea what they're going through. And I knew, I mean, I've known models before and like, there's the, especially the more attractive you are, the more that you have creepy people trying to use you for their own needs, right? Whether it's like, even, even at the level of being a model or a supermodel is like there are so many gross creeps up, up in there trying to get a piece of you for one way or another.
Sammy Uyama
Especially, it's only amplified with Instagram, right?
Andrew Love
Exactly.
Sammy Uyama
I never, and I never figured out what the difference between a model and a supermodel is. But anyway, irrelevant conversation.
Andrew Love
A few zeros on the on the price of what you get...
Sammy Uyama
A-ha. A-ha. A-ha.
Andrew Love
Like your notoriety, this kind of thing. But in general, yeah, I think it's, it's good to... I find it, you know, it just came up in this conversation, but the idea of you have a certain amount of energy every day. Let's say you wake up with, with a full battery. Think about your phone. Let's say you have a certain amount of energy - sexual energy - and you can use that energy for good or for bad. And when you look at people, you're actually giving away a lot of that energy, because what do you get in return for staring at people? You don't get satisfaction you don't get, oh yeah, now I'm a worthy and great person. You get this feeling of longing, like I want more is not enough; I'm not enough or whatever you just get in your head. So you're giving away a lot of your power and energy and in return, you're getting self-doubt, criticism, whatever, whatever the case may be, whatever you're wired for. So it's like, I think it's just good to, to understand, even if you do get caught up and you start looking at somebody that you pull back and you say, wait a second, I need to get that energy back and either plug into praying, or finding some healthy (crosstalk). Yeah, if you're married, go have a conversation with your wife and be like listen, or your husband or whatever, whatever the case may be; and say, I think you're beautiful, I think you're amazing. And you're investing energy into them. And that comes back to you in the healthiest way, rather than investing time and energy into Instagram, or into oogling people on the street or whatever, which is, it's a losing proposition in a very practical manner. And if you don't get a grip on it, you know, it doesn't go away. Like just like that. That John Steinbeck book is like, you know, do you want to be that old person that's checking out young people because it reminds you of better days? Because like, or do you want to look at them? I think it's always such a wasted opportunity when you check out people instead of relating to them on a sibling level, because you can really help them so much more if you don't want anything from them. If you just want to give them support and help from like a very platonic, you know, standpoint, emotionally, it's so much more helpful like those teachers that have affairs with their students. To me, that's such a gross paradigm because they're abusing their authority and their power for their own personal gain, rather than really being a stand up role model to these young people, which is what they really need, right? We all really need role models who don't want to take anything from us, but who want to just give us love and support so that we can grow and blossom into amazing people. And so that's what's amusing.
Sammy Uyama
Yeah, that's...
Andrew Love
Yeah.
Sammy Uyama
That's such an amazing or such an important point you just mentioned about, it never gets easier, actually. So we're at whatever point you're at now, this is the time to address these things, because you definitely don't want to be that exactly what you just said, you know, that older person that's still, you know, treating women this way because you get older but the women never get older. They'll, they'll stay out. They stayed with - how did you describe them - trim and, and firm?
Andrew Love
Yeah. I mean, whatever, whatever you want. They will be there..
Sammy Uyama
Whatever you're into
Andrew Love
...online.
Sammy Uyama
Yeah. And yeah. And like, yeah, I definitely don't want to be that way. And it's this, this fantasy of someday, where they'll just like disappear and naturally go away, that doesn't exist. So this is really the time to address these things. And I definitely don't want to be that grandfather that's, you know, looking at my grandchildren's friends that way, and that's really gross for me. And I remember that what you just said, it reminded me of this experience I'd forgotten about. I, in college, I did some like, I worked a little bit helping, like, for like, kind of like a moving company, helping people move in and out of houses. And there was one job in particular where is this old, is this old, is old man and old woman, his brother and sister and you know, they're both in their late 70s or mid 70s, something like that. And both really healthy. Neither of them had ever married, you know, they just ended up living together for you know, saving costs and things like that. And he was really healthy, into skiing and you know, he's a really fun guy and it was like, it just was really cool, how like vigorous he still was at his age, and he's still skiing every season. And so, you know, you know, chit chatting during the break, then went back to moving, and then you know, kind of pulling stuff and putting stuff in boxes. And I stumbled on this guy's porn collection. And it was really like a, you know, of course I didn't you know, it was embarrassing for me. So like, I kind of just like put it back. And of course, I didn't like talk to him about it or anything, but I was just left with my, my feelings is that it was really gross, you know, just to... it was really confronting also like, yeah, wow, it's like you can that's possible, right? Just, you know, like, no great guy you know, it wasn't like a dirty, horrible person and that's also what I want to emphasize. It's like, really a guy that I liked and that just, I wonder of his life, if this is the direction that his life took him or that he took - however you want to look at it.
Andrew Love
Well, yeah, just I mean for context, right? Who do you want to be? And this has obviously sent me an eye or two guys, I just want to reiterate this. Because I'm feeling it in this conversation in particular how much this is such a male's perspective, and I vowed to you that we will interview woman about these topics as well. It just seems like we, it's easier to get male interviews and for Sammy and I to talk to each other in the beginning. But hopefully there will be a critical mass where we get a lot more women into these conversations. But I wanted to just compare and contrast to eventualities and to ask you which camp you would like to be in one, which is that adorable old couple from the "Up" movie, right, where they just as they get older, they only love each other more and more and more and more. I mean, if you don't cry during the first 10 minutes of "Up", you are, you need to just go hug a tree or something. Get, get life back in you. It's like, it's the most beautiful thing. It's what we all really want is somebody to grow old with. Somebody to love more and more. So do you want to be that couple from "Up"? Or do you want to be Hugh Hefner who had you know, endless amounts of woman and after he died, all these, all these, I mean even before he died, books written about the type of person he really was and how he devoured more and more people but he couldn't get any type of real satisfaction. Nothing to make him a happy person. He ended up still drugging women to have them, you know, do sexual favors for him and all this stuff. And like, you know, obviously that's, that's an extreme version. But which would you like to be, and if, and if it's the Up couple, then how do you, how do you, like, train your, how do you train your eyes to have a one and only? And that's a challenge for Sammy and I to you know, because we are mentors for others; we were having this conversation now in front of hundreds of people, thousands of people eventually, and we're not having this because we want to force our ideals on anybody's, Because this is what we deeply believe in, is like, I want to be that old couple in Up, except you're gonna have a lot more grandkids because we have three sons, right? So I mean, ideally, but I want to be that old couple. I really do. And I want to let my wife feel deeply beautiful because of me and I don't want her to feel uglier because I compare her to other people. I want her to feel beautiful because she knows that I'm, I'm totally in love with her and committed to loving every part of her more and more each day. And so that really does matter where my eyes go during the day. And this came out right. Like, just yesterday we went into town here in Bali. A lot of beautiful women were... my eyes, I have to, you know. I have found what I've definitely found. It is always a lot easier. When you prepare yourself for the day spiritually. You have morning spiritual routines, makes your life a lot easier because then your spirit is connected to the infinite and your eyes are more kind of like the servant of the soul. Whereas if you don't prepare, a lot of times your soul is a servant to your eyes and your eyes will always take you to stupid places. So, preparation in the morning, and if you're really struggling, even preparing, before you go somewhere, before you leave the house and, you know, again, prepare. Okay, I'm gonna go here and here and here. It's just like, prepare before you go online, and you will, you'll do fine. And if you don't, and you just pull out your phone or pull out your laptop or whatever, you'll end up going wherever everybody takes you - online marketers, whatever. And, and same if you don't prepare yourself before you leave the house, chances are your eyes might lead you astray. So you got to talk to your eyes and say, Hey, buddy, we're in this for other people. We don't want to take, right? So I think, I think I'm committed to doing that. Are you committed to doing that, Sammy?
Sammy Uyama
Absolutely. And, and this is very inspiring. But also I feel like we're going a little different direction than what we originally intended. But it's, it's fantastic. It's totally fantastic. How about, we leave with, we just wrap, we turn around back and talk about healthy looking and just leave listeners with kind of I guess... for me this was very insightful, what we walked, what we're walking away with, and what is defined, what, what defines healthy looking. And so like what I got is that's, rather, it's anything that has to do with re-human... what's, how to, re-human, humanifying, re-humanizing?
Andrew Love
Sure.
Sammy Uyama
Like remembering the humaneness of people. And that's like the litmus test for anything that is, I think, a big as it adds your life, take away from your life was how connected or disconnected does this make you? And that's one of the biggest consequences of pornography is how disconnected it makes you from other people. And likewise, this this activity of ogling, right? It's the unhealthiness of it is comes from the taking, devouring from other people and forgetting them as a person. And so whereas healthy looking can be anything that contributes to you, your pre-awareness of them as another human being, and, and you know, it's not about, you know, just projecting all beauty but learning how to appreciate beauty in a healthy way and then going about your life not, not obsessing or idolizing, right? But remembering the the, the human being behind all of the physical things that you appreciate about them.
Andrew Love
For reals. Yeah, I would say it's really healthy to acknowledge the beauty that God has that you know, there's like flowers there's, you know, but it, to obsess about something is, is not healthy to, to obsess about. Especially other people is definitely not healthy. So it's good to, to recognize: am I, am I looking too long? Is this person taking something from me because I'm giving it to them? I'm giving too much of my attention and allow somebody to be beautiful. I mean, but what I, you know, one thing that I do is like if I do find myself looking at attractive woman in particular, if I'm struggling on a certain day, then I'll try to reinvest just as much energy and finding beauty and other people that might not be as attractive Like finding a really old person and saying, wow, this person's just as beautiful as this other person, just in a totally different way and staring at them, right?
Sammy Uyama
That's a very good point.
Andrew Love
But just finding the beauty in all things rather than obsessing about the shiny things, which is why wars start, because we were chasing gold or chasing all these things, rather than finding beauty all around us, which is much healthier. Because how often do they have people looking at them, finding the beauty in them, like the homeless person on the street? What about them? Why do we ignore the homeless person on the street and stare at the supermodel on the street? That's not healthy, that, you know. So anyway, trying to find that balance of not, not, not ignoring and not staring, but finding beauty in all things. eternal beauty, eternal beauty.
Sammy Uyama
Very well put. Anything else you want to add or should we wrap up?
Andrew Love
I think we should wrap up. I think this is a lot of food for thought. But yeah, we're Sammy. And I just want to reiterate, we are far from perfect, but we do have close to perfect intentions. And we have, we were invested in building those intentions into habits and building those habits into a life. And if you want help along that road, you know, sign up for one of our courses, consume more of our content. The more that goes into your mind, the more likely you are to take action. So we have an online challenge, like a 15-day challenge to really help you get some sort of momentum in your life, building sexual integrity, so that you can reclaim all your senses, your eyes, your ears, everything. So that you can do productive things with your time and energy rather than lose time and energy to porn or to obsessing about like in this conversation, staring at people or whatever, but to reclaim yourself. So please go to highnoon.org for all of our resources. And we want to help. We want to help you build the life of your dreams so that you're in love with life so much that you don't have time for this nonsense. Porn is such a ridiculous piece of trash nonsense, but we settle for it when we're bored or when we're stuck. So we want to help you get unstuck. So 15-Day Challenge is really to get momentum in your life. We highly recommend that as a good starting point, if you're just learning about us.
Sammy Uyama
Well put. Excellent. Oh, so thank you very much, everybody. We'll see you next week.